Curse

Weezer_Blue · Jun 08, 2005, 02:29 PM // 14:29

All successful and fun games have replay value...

I was wondering if everyone understood exactly what gives a game replay value. In my oppinion, the only thing that can ever give a game replay value, is competitive Player versus Player combat. Why you ask? Well: With player versus player, your opponents are never identicle, nor is the battle itself, or the course of events/actions taken by all the players. This is what keeps PvP fresh. And because PvP = Replay Value, games such as Counter Strike 1.6 and Starcraft are still alive and well to this day - and have an enormous, and generally pleased fanbase.

Things that don't have replay value? Well. In my oppinion, there is no game thus far that has any replay value in it's PvP. Have you *ever* beat a game, and then decided that after the hundredth time of completing it, it's extremely fun? How bout the second? It really depends on how long the game is. The longer the PvE story-line, the worse the replay value. I can beat story mode on tekken 5 a few times without getting bored, cause it's short and sort of challenging. But then I get bored with it and feel like killing some people head to head. The same is true for Guild Wars. I beat it once, and then the second time through wasn't excruciatingly bad (although, it wasn't great, by any means), but at least I had a new class and a new experience. The third time through, I suffered an aneurism. It's not that the PvE isn't great . . . The first time... But after that 1 time, it's grind. Now why is this a problem... we'll get to that.

Now. What can detract from replay value? If replay value = PvP it's obvious that to have a successful game, you pump the PvP a decent bit. Guild Wars has great PvP. It's challenging, it's unpredictable, and until recently, it relyed heavily on tactical player/team skill. The Fianna and KOR and Negative Zero and War Machine and all those others who I've forgotten didn't win by just piecing together random builds and hoping it worked. They used complicated and ingenius team builds to put victory in a vice. So what could possibly make guild wars have no replay value, as it does currently?
The problem is not that Guild Wars is not fun, or that it has no replay value. The problem is that Guild Wars forces you to go through a very long period of replaying the part of the game that has Zero replay value to get to the part that has tons of replay value. The replay value does not count if 75-90 percent of your game's population gets fed up with farming and doing missions and more farming to get to the fun part.

Finally, I'd like to beg Arena.Net to listen to their PvP crowd. When all the PvEers ditch you cause the PvE is short lived (due to lack of PvE grind: you don't need all skills / any runes for PvE. You need one crappy/half-decent build for 1 character), your PvP crowd will stand by you for a long long time. Too bad you already screwed them upon release, and many of them have ditched you or are quickly losing faith that you will ever fix this problem. This game has turned into short-lived WoW.

RedX · Jun 08, 2005, 02:42 PM // 14:42

I am a PvEer and a PvPer and I for the most part agree with you. I havn't met the grind people are complaining about yet but I'm sure I will soon (played since the release). The only reason I havn't yet is because I do a lot of exploring with two RP chars.

GW is NEAR perfect, but one issue seems to be holding it back. I DO NOT agree with an UAS button. I know you havn't said anything about that but someone is bound to bring it up sooner or later.

What I do think would be a wonderful idea is to make it so that not only do you gain exp in PvP fights, but when you win you get money also (or in more rare occasions a rune unlocked). This way players can go to skill trainers and unlock the skills they need without doing much of the part they don't like to (or grinding for that matter).

How does that suggestion sound?

Shadow_Avenger · Jun 08, 2005, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Hmm, I played the original Diablo and Diablo 2 for 6-9 months, and completed them with multiple characters, completed Duex Ex 3 times. Played Neverwinter nights for 3 years (mainly due to the toolset and the shear amount of variety with in the community, building my own successful PW also contributed, which is still live today with players from all over).

Replay value has nothing to do with player vs player. It has more to do with if you like the gameplay, end of story.

Admittedly for this game PvP is probably the main reason for replay, as in 1 months play you can easily play all classes and max them out, which in turn leaves there little other reason to play, exploring is cool, but once you have seen an area, why go back unless there is some special reason, good loot and at this time there seems to be very little bar runes and elite skills. Armours are made, and weapons , by the time you max out the likely hood is that even the best of the best weapons only actually do 2 more damage. There is the farming for the gold to by the same quality armour that looks different, but I would not really class that as replayability.

Is there away they could add replayability to GW, add expansions??? I am sure they will sell bucket loads of expansion packs, and the server population will ebb and flow with there coming and going.

DrSLUGFly · Jun 08, 2005, 03:20 PM // 15:20

I agree with OP to a point. It is PvP which guarantees replay value, but not PvP in the CS/HoH style necessarily. If you could allow several parties to travel into an instance together, perhaps from two different portals (yes yes, this isn't a MMWhatever) or even from 3 different portals, then you could have PvP matches anywhere in Tyria. The possible battle landscapes would then be almost limited, plus it would introduce enemies common to both or all teams (three groups fighting, then along comes a bone dragon boss or a worm). Perhaps, a team could hold possession of this instance for their district so that anyone who enters the "PvP instance" would have to take out this team to claim it for their own... and there would remain the PvE instances where a team gets a private map for themselves.

Mormegil · Jun 08, 2005, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Find a good Guild, they will help you ascend in some hours...from lvl 3 to 20. Then you'll use your lvl 20 uberman to help them with their chars. If it's boring, turn off GW sound and listen to some music while doing it.

I guess I can live with that.

EDIT: oops, you're already in a guild. Well, just do what I said above then ^^

WillOrWil · Jun 08, 2005, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Even from someone who prefers PvE this game is sorely lacking in replay value. Someone else in another thread said it best when they wrote, "In other games you grow attached to the character you play, here you don't." He was right.

The story-line is set and it feels that way. In most other games it feels like you directly contribute to the change in the online world. In GW it doesn't, or at least to me it doesn't. It would have been nice if they had an option for people to choose whether to be on the side of the Mantle or not. At least by doing that there would be more of an RPG feel to it instead of everyone being shoved into the same lot.

Everyone is shoved into the same lot too. Not just with the story line. I remember reading the reviews on GW and how it proclaimed proudly that everyone would look different. That isn't true. Even with a full set of 15K Dragon Armor and my guild's cape I find that on a daily basis I run into other characters that look almost exactly like my character.

This is Guild Wars. But I don't see any true benefits in being in a Guild. Yes one is allowed to GvG and you get some people to group with... But other than that? What else? The Guild Hall, to me, was the make or break point of it. It could have been so much more! But all it is, is a place to go to GvG. If they just added a merchant there and storage they would have made it so much better! But such small "benefits" such as those were left out. It could have also been so much better if they allowed an option for the same Guild to have practice matches in their own guild. It was nice they did the "unrated match" but still, being able to play against your own guild members would have been a really nice touch.

The idea of Guild Wars is one based on factions. But they did very little at all to promote the idea of Guild versus Guild "in-game". They could easily have fixed that by simply spamming the results of GvG matches as they do the results of the HoH. Granted that might be a LOT of messages...but all they have to do is add in a "Results" channel of chat like they have a "Trade" channel. At least by doing that they could get people competitive about Guilds and people could turn those on and off at will.

Playing to "see the sights" is part of the fun for fans of PvE. But that was ruined for me with the constant annoyance of extremely low level monsters attacking my level 20! Now this is specifically my personal opinion here... But it would be nice if they put in a function where if you are a certain level you can "tour" an area without having to fight. Sometimes it is just nice to explore and fill out one's map.

Another person wrote that they were suprised that there were no dungeons in GW. He isn't alone. I'm surprised there aren't dungeons as well! Part of making a game replayable is by making each area interesting in more than just graphics or toughness of battles. Each area in most games that I have played have always felt unique and completely different. In this game by the time I had gotten to Amnoon with my first character all the areas just seemed to run together. Adding in dungeons would have made each area last longer and feel more distinct rather than just another place to "run through".

The story jumped around too much too in my opinion. In pre-searing and right after post-searing you learned to hate the Char. In fact I was always eager to fight them to get revenge for slaughtering me in pre-searing! But after enough missions they just disappear? And after that the enemies constantly switched around? I don't get it. It was random enough where I felt I couldn't put my online zest for killing enemies into a distinct category except "go outside of town and kill anything that moves".

The NPC's in GW are more NPC than in any other game I've played. They feel like NPC's, they act like NPC's...they are NPC's. Which is fine I guess. But in other games they at least tried to make each NPC feel like it had a story, a life and a personality. I mean, in some cases I even had sympathy for the NPC character. But in GW they seem to be all alike.

Oh well, I guess I will end it here. This is all just my opinion though and I doubt I will see any of it implimented.

Phantom Force · Jun 08, 2005, 04:34 PM // 16:34

I'm not heavy into PvP yet, but I do agree a little with OP. I think replay value comes from multiple aspects, PvE (story), farming, and PvP. If you look at most successful online games they all have a hint of this. As others have said you need to enjoy the game, you need to feel connected to your character, and you have to have stuff you want to do. All of these contribute to all players. PvP more for some players, whlie others enjoy farming. I've played the game almost 2x through using W/Mo and a Mo/N. Story is boring, but knowing what to do I can rush through easily. I enjoy getting the character up so I can hunt/farm for items, unlock things, and eventually I'll PvP. Not everyone enjoys farming but that's why you have PvP.

An example: FFXI was strictly RP type game until they added Ballista (their form of PvP). With the addition to Ballista (battles in certain areas and levels were restricted), now people could hunt Notorious Monsters for rare items, craft, farm, level new jobs, complete story line, and even had 70+ weapon skill you could kill an Notorious Monster for. Not everything required group teamwork but if you wanted to do HNM's to get rare items usually you needed a group. In ballista it was based on kingom vs kingdom (group vs group). It appealed to a lot of people but people began leaving game because groups were incredibly hard to get if you didn't start from day 1. Then you add in bots, areas around world that paid people by the hour to camp HNM's that spawned only at certain times waiting for it, etc. people lost interest.

I think if Anet wants to keep it's players they will need to think things over seriously. You can nerf and change PvE. But once people do story, took me a week of average playing (not religous), and then get tired of that. At this point with the nerfing of farming and stuff PvE'ers will lose interest incredibly fast. An expansion that adds more story oooh big whoop. I'm still level 20, fighting level 20-28 mobs in a party only to see a new story. Not exciting doesn't give replay factor. What's left? Just the PvP, unless you're religious about it you'll get bored doing just PvP. Yes PvP'ers are upset about things too but Anet's popularity isn't soley PvP. You may stick around for PvP but when time comes, people start leaving, PvP will not keep Anet making money. Everything is intertwined and connected. It's like a building if you take away just one support frame, the entire building will crumble down eventually. IMO Anet needs to figure out the best way to satisfy both sides without compromising gameplay for PvP and PvE. Otherwise it will be safe to say GW will flop and start losing players rapidly.

Shadow_Avenger · Jun 08, 2005, 06:00 PM // 18:00

My solution would be simple, let them have the UAS for PvP, but add shed loads of new items and weapons that do mega damage etc, but have them banned from PvP arenas.
The loot pool would need a major increase, an increase so that a major Mob Boss that takes 8 to kill can actually drop 1 of 30 high end PvE items.
These items would then make it possible to play some areas without henchmen, to explore. I would explore post ascalon solo with my ascended characters, but the landscape, although fitting for the senerio is dull. Even at lvl 20 the char can kill you if you are foolish, but it adds something else to the game. Perhaps they could even have solo quest in these areas given by npc's for ascended characters.
Even if you just was able to return to Ascalon and actually fight for the king, tell him about his son and turn the tide and reclaim ascalon would be cool.
PvP in the long run is a casual game, I very very much doubt in the long run players will be still PvPing every night in 2 months time.

Even if you just was able to return to Ascalon and actually fight for the king, tell him about his son and turn the tide and reclaim ascalon would be cool.

Ordas · Jun 08, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Roger that, OP.

When I first came to this forum, I didn't understand WTF the PvPers were complaining about. I thought they were just complaining for the sake of complaining :P

Now, as I'm building up my second character, I'm beginning to understand. Its not because they wanted everything handed to them on a silver platter. Its because getting everything meant running through nearly the exact same the storyline at LEAST 3 times. I would imagine people would work as much as needed to get their characters maxed out, but to have to run the same story, cutscenes, failed missions, and farming for three characters (that's assuming you make 3 characters with all 6 professions) would be a bit hair ripping.

Combine that with the fact that WillOrWil stated, that you DON'T feel much of an attachment to your character... then its just mindless... you get bored and you quit before you reach the greater points of the game: PvP.

The traintrack storyline causes some of this. Once you've seen it once, there's nothing else much to see.

The guilds have also been very flakey. Only an extremely small amount of guilds are PvP ready. I know my guild has about 15 people, but only 4 or 5 of us are online at any given time, max. This doesn't allow us to take part in GvG battles competatively.

edit: maybe I should add some suggestions :P

I don't agree with the UAS.
I suggest making skills quick and easy to obtain after level 20. I think this could be done by making skill points come as often as refund points do.

As for runes and stuff, for these I don't have a solution. Maybe a rune merchant that works like the dye merchant.

Evan The Cursed · Jun 08, 2005, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillOrWil

My thoughts exactly.

Saerden · Jun 08, 2005, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillOrWil

Playing to "see the sights" is part of the fun for fans of PvE. But that was ruined for me with the constant annoyance of extremely low level monsters attacking my level 20! Now this is specifically my personal opinion here... But it would be nice if they put in a function where if you are a certain level you can "tour" an area without having to fight. Sometimes it is just nice to explore and fill out one's map.

A pretty good summary, but this point stands out, because i dont hear that too often.

I dont explore on my first run through the game. Why? There is no point in killing "Monster Group of the Area"(tm) 100 times. The landscape is designed as a maze, and in order to go somewhere, i have to kill all those monsters

If i need to bypass them, i will come back with max armor, sprint and def skills.

GW is not an persistant world. And making the only truly unique, flawless aspect hard to get (im not talking about pvp. its flawed. im talking about pvp (UAS / UAR) metagame) is not really making it better.

(UAS / UAR is already in the game. You push it by playing for x h. The point is, whats an optimal value for x?)

Weezer_Blue · Jun 09, 2005, 10:31 AM // 10:31

The optimal value for X is 0. Look at the beta, and you will see what I mean. UAS was a godsend. Everyone loved it, although, they may even have argued against it. People who say you need to "earn" your runes and "earn" your skills are idiots. You don't need to earn anything. Your earnings are competitive. What you earn is your rank on the ladder, and your crappy insignificant /fame emote. Unlock through PvP isn't an option. That leads to a downward spiral of failure, and it relies on time played as well. If this were really a skill, not time played, kind of game, UAS and UAR and possibly Unlock all Upgrades would be in it. This game is a grind with zero replay value. Those who argue against me are either a very rare type of gamer, or they haven't progressed far enough into the situation to truley realize that. Or perhaps they never heard of anything better. Something called "the beta" where Guild Wars was the best RPG I had ever played. I can't say that anymore. Guild Wars is not the best RPG I have ever played. Guild Wars a month and a half ago is.

Synncial77 · Jun 10, 2005, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Huh?? PvP is not **REQUIRED** for replay value. To think that it is reflects a pretty simple, single minded viewpoint.

I played diablo and diablo 2 for ages and never initiated PvP a single time in my entire play experience. It was forced upon me a few times but never once would I say that it enhanced the replay value. I also know people who've played Diablo 2 for years and never even played it online.

Other examples, from a large selection of past titles, could include Sim City, the Sims, Maniac Mansion, X-Com, Grand Theft Auto, Master of Orion, Civilization, Tetris, Majestic Chess, Quest for Glory, Tie Fighter, and a plethora of others.

"Replay Value" is derived from being engaged - a reason to come back. Diablo had both random maps AND craploads of loot. Diablo even had the legendary secret Cow level that was specifically designed for farming which was HUGELY popular.

As for the other titles on my list, the replay value came from variety and/or the goal of bettering yourelf. Sim City is essentially the same game each time you play but it's infused with random situations and problems that require logic and stategy. Maniac Mansion and Quest for Glory had multiple paths to finish the game providing an actual reason to play the game from start to finish multiple times. Grand theft auto had a rediculous amount of sub missions and diversions to keep you busy once the story was completed.

So, replay value is the result of elements that make you want to keep playing. PvP **can** be that reason, but it doesn't have to be.